September 2009 Archives

The 2010 SRX is equipped with a standard Rear Safety Belt Reminder (RSBR) for all rear seat occupants.

Rear seat occupancy is determined based on the safety belt switches -- occupant sensing mats are not used -- and rear seat occupants are not detected until buckled. Therefore, if an occupant never buckles, the system will never detect the occupant's presence.

Buckled Safety Belt

If an occupant does buckle, the occupant is detected and the corresponding RSBR indicator on the instrument cluster will illuminate green for 35 seconds, and then turn off. (Fig. 1)

Fig. 1

Once a rear seat occupant is detected, the system will assume that occupant is present for the duration of the ignition cycle or until a rear door is opened. If an ignition cycle occurs or a rear door is opened, the RSBR indicators will reset and assume no rear occupants are there until a safety belt buckle is latched again.

Unbuckled Safety Belt

If the rear seat occupant unbuckles during the same ignition cycle and the speed exceeds 6.5 mph (10kph), the RSBR indicator will illuminate red in full screen mode on the instrument cluster and the RSBR chime will sound. (Fig. 2)

Fig. 2

The chime will stop after three seconds, but the RSBR indicator will remain illuminated until the rear seat occupant buckles or the ignition cycle ends. If the occupant rebuckles, the indicator will illuminate green for 35 seconds.

Safety belt latch plates and buckles are keyed, so they cannot be crossed. For example, the center plate will not latch into either of the side safety belt buckles.

RSBR Service

There are no DTCs associated with the RSBR system. The system can be diagnosed using the following symptom diagnostic procedure: Safety Belt Indicator Circuit Malfunction - Rear.

- Thanks to Mike Fitzgerald and Carmen Richmond

Beginning with the 2010 Equinox, Camaro, LaCrosse, Terrain and SRX, a SIR load tool will no longer be used for the diagnosis of SIR deployment loop DTCs. The updated diagnostic process will use a fused jumper (without resistor), created by the technician, instead of a SIR load tool.

Refer to the appropriate Service Information for updated service procedures.

- Thanks to Carmen Richmond

The 2010 Terrain is an all-new entry in the compact crossover segment for GMC. It's functional and frugal, with rugged styling to go along with exceptional fuel economy.(Fig. 1)

Fig. 1

Since the Terrain is an all-new vehicle for GMC, customers may find the operation of some Terrain features different from their experience with past GMC models. Before attempting a repair for a customer concern, be sure the customer understands the proper operation of the feature in question.

Like the new Equinox, the Terrain is based on a new front-drive crossover architecture. For more details on many Terrain features, refer to the Equinox article in the June 2009 TechLink.

Powertrains

There are two powertrain combinations available on the Terrain.

2.4L 4-Cylinder Engine (RPO LAF) with 6T45 6-Speed Automatic Transmission

The 2.4L SIDI VVT 4-cylinder engine provides 182 horsepower and 174 lb.-ft. of torque and is mated to the Hydra-Matic 6T45 6-speed automatic transmission. Both front- and all-wheel-drive configurations are available. Fuel economy is 21 mpg city and 30 mpg highway (10.1 L/100 km city and 6.7 L/100 km highway).

On vehicles with the 4-cylinder engine, the Economy (ECO) Mode can improve the vehicle's fuel economy by changing the transmission shift points and making several other fuel-saving adjustments. Press the ECO button by the shift lever to turn this feature on or off. The ECO light in the instrument cluster illuminates.

4-cylinder models also feature the Active Noise Cancellation (ANC) system, which detects certain sounds inside the vehicle and sends counteracting sound waves through the audio system's speakers to help increase quietness with little added mass, aiding fuel economy.

TIP: For optimal ANC performance, do not block the cargo area speaker.

3.0L V6 Engine (RPO LF1) with 6T70 6-Speed Automatic Transmission

The 3.0L SIDI VVT V6 engine produces 264 horsepower and 214 lb.-ft. of torque, is available in both front- and all-wheel-drive configurations and has a 3500-lb. towing capacity. It provides 18 mpg city and 25 mpg highway (11.9 L/100 km city and 8.1 L/100 km highway).

The Hydra-Matic 6T70 6-speed transmission is designed for torque handling capability to meet the needs of the high-output 3.0L V6.

GM Global-A Architecture

The new Terrain uses the GM Global-A Serial Data Electrical Architecture -- a high-and low-speed data network that connects system modules around the vehicle and ensures that information is properly communicated and shared among them.

TIP: You will use the MDI with GDS software and a laptop PC in place of the Tech 2 for diagnosis.

Infotainment

The USB connection in the center console can be used to play a portable audio device and download files to the audio system hard drive.

TIP: The USB jack provides true iPod^® capability, enabling recharging and control of the iPod using the audio system controls. However, not all iPod devices are compatible, in which case it's necessary to use the AUX jack.

Power Liftgate

The available programmable power liftgate has three modes of operation. Mode selection is controlled by the interior mode switch located on the overhead console. (Fig. 2)

Fig. 2

In the 3/4 Mode (programmable mode), the liftgate powers open to a height programmed by the owner (to prevent the liftgate from hitting overhead obstructions, such as a garage door).

Power Door Locks

The power door lock buttons are located on the center console below the audio controls. (Fig. 3)

Fig. 3

A locked door can be unlocked by pulling the inside handle TWICE -- first to unlock, second to release the door latch.

Rear Vision Camera

The standard rear vision camera displays images either in the rearview mirror (using a built-in mini display screen) or the navigation system screen (if equipped). The camera is located above the license plate.

Service Updates

The latest service updates that apply to the new Terrain include:

Difficulty with Tire Pressure Monitor Sensor Learn Process - Updated procedure available for performing a tire pressure monitor system relearn after a tire rotation or replacing a sensor.

Do Not Swap Modules in Vehicles with Global Electrical Systems - Swapping ECMs or other modules will result in a no start condition.

Introduction of New Global Diagnostic System (GDS) - Requires the use of the MDI with GDS software and a laptop PC in place of the Tech 2 for diagnosis. Refer to bulletin #09-00-89-019.

Check the Service Information for more details.

Training

Terrain training courses include:

TechAssists

13041.13T1
Rack Mounted EPS

13044.12T2
35 PSI Tire Pressure

18044.24T1
Rear Vision Camera/ISRVM

19047.18T1
MPIM/PDIM/Audio Bluetooth

22048.37T1 (Canada)
Rear Vision Camera

Interactive Distance Learning

16340.14D**
SIDI*

Web-Based Training

16041.07W**
Rear Vision Camera Gen 4

16043.51W**
SIDI*

16048.25W-R2
Multiple Diagnostic Interface (MDI) Familiarization

16048.26W
GM Global Diagnostic System

*Applies to both the 2.4L LAF engine and the 3.0L LF1 engine

** Not available in Canada

- Thanks to Ange Girolamo

Pontiac Vibe programming software and calibrations going back to the 2003 model year are now available for download from the TIS2Web application.

It is no longer necessary to always replace the PCM on a Vibe with a pre-programmed module; instead, technicians can perform calibration updates for a number of performance concerns using the Calibration Update Wizard (CUW) application. (Fig. 4)

Fig. 4

The CUW application is separate from SPS and needs to be downloaded to the PC. Once it is set up on the PC, it is easy to use to download the latest Vibe calibration updates. Check with your dealership's system administrator for setup and installation assistance.

To access the calibrations and software programming instructions:

1.     Log on to TIS2Web

2.     Click on the Help menu question mark (?) icon

3.     Click on the Vibe Programming Application and Calibrations in the left column.

TIP: You must download and install the Vibe CUW Programming Application before being able to download any calibrations.

Calibrations downloaded using the CUW application are stored on the PC and can be used on multiple vehicles with either the MDI or Tech 2.

For additional information on downloading and installing the Vibe software, refer to bulletin #09-06-04-006A or contact the Techline Customer Support Center.

- Thanks to Mike Waszczenko

On the 2008-09 CTS and 2009 CTS-V, there may be confusion about the outside air temperature sensor and display operation and diagnosis.

When diagnosing a customer concern related to the outside (ambient) temperature sensor and display, review the information below.

General Information and Function

The outside air temperature (shown in the radio or navigation display) is read by a sensor that measures the air temperature just behind the grille at the hood latch bracket. (Fig. 5)

Fig. 5

The sensor measures temperatures between -30°C and 51°C (-22°F and 123.8°F). The device is an NTC thermistor (a ceramic material that decreases in resistance with increasing temperature). The specifications of the sensor are very good; less than +/- 1°C (1.8°F) in very cold conditions and less than +/- 0.5°C (1°F) in warm to hot conditions. The sensors have a proven reliability record and almost never show issues when returned in service.

The main source of variation between actual outside temperature and the reading inside the vehicle is the variable airflow across the sensor at low vehicle speed and stopped conditions. The front end of a vehicle (at low speeds) is generally a very warm place when the vehicle is or has recently been running. This warmth would normally cause big differences between the real ambient temperature and the reading in the display. At higher speeds, when more fresh airflow is moving through the front end of the vehicle, a much more accurate indication of actual air temperature is provided.

To prevent large indicated temperature increases at low vehicle speeds, very slow mathematical averaging keeps the temperature from creeping up in stop and go traffic. When the vehicle is stopped (idling) or moving at very low speeds (less than 10mph/16kph) the sensor is ignored as it rises and the indicated display does not change (decreases in actual temperature are allowed). So in city traffic with stop-and-go conditions at lower speeds, the displayed temperature may never increase.

When a vehicle is shut down after running, the front end of the car tends to soak-up in temperature. The last good temperature indication at shut down is held for 3 hours rather than taking the raw value of the sensor on start up, if it is higher. If the raw temperature is lower, the raw value is used immediately (the sensor readings are almost never artificially low -- see the exception below). This 3 hour hold is an approximation. The actual air temperature can increase in 3 hours. After 3 hours, it is assumed the vehicle has cooled off enough to read the raw sensor value as the actual ambient temperature. When temperatures are dropping (driving into cold weather or as the sun sets), a much quicker mathematical averaging is used even at low vehicle speeds because artificially low readings are not common.

EXCEPTION: When the vehicle is parked in a cool environment for several hours (such as an underground parking facility), the initial temperature reading of the sensor is displayed on start up. As the vehicle is driven outside, the temperature may be significantly higher. The sensor has no way to know this and uses slow mathematical averaging at low vehicle speeds to bring the indicated temperature up. At higher speeds, the averaging is faster but not instantaneous.

Tech 2 Update for Proper Diagnostics

For the Cadillac CTS, the Tech 2 shows two indications of outside air temperature -- a filtered value and a raw value. Initially on the Tech 2, the raw value was shown incorrect when the sensor was open or shorted. It incorrectly showed the last known or default value as used in the HVAC automatic climate control calibration instead of the actual raw reading. This was corrected with Tech 2 software update version 29.003 in March 2009 and the raw value now shows the sensor output from 0.0 to 5.0 volts. An unplugged sensor reads 5.0 volts and a shorted sensor reads 0.0 volts. This should help with diagnosing wiring or sensor issues.

In service, using the vehicle display to diagnose problems with the outside air temperature sensor is not advised. The display is not updated when the vehicle is stopped, so holding or warming the sensor will not affect the vehicle display at idle. Unplugging the sensor will blank the display (even at idle) and set DTC B0158. If a sensor is then plugged back in, the display will update to the current sensor actual temperature. This has lead to several misdiagnosed sensor replacements, assuming that the new sensor gives a better reading than the old sensor. Use the Tech 2 with the latest software update to diagnose concerns with the sensor reading.

Instantaneous Update Feature for Diagnostics or Customer Usage

Since its launch in July 2007, the Cadillac CTS HVAC software has a provision for an instantaneous update of the outside air temperature display to the actual sensor reading. Pressing and holding the A/C (snowflake) button and the adjacent Recirculation button simultaneously for about 3 seconds will update the display to the current unfiltered sensor reading. (Fig. 6)

Fig. 6

This can be used for diagnostics as well as by a customer who parks in an underground garage on a regular basis before heading out into warmer weather. After the display is updated, the same filters are used (at the new temperature) to help make the display accurate and stable.

- Thanks to Michael Ciarkowski

The Corvette Grand Sport is new for the 2010 model year, replacing the previous Z51 package. Available in either coupe or convertible models, the Grand Sport features the LS3 6.2L V8 engine with either a 6-speed manual or 6-speed automatic transmission, Z06-style front splitter, a wider track and "trademark" fender flares, a revised suspension and specific gearing. (Fig. 7)

Fig. 7

High Pressure Oil Filter

Grand Sport coupe models equipped with a manual transmission use a dry-sump oiling system, differential cooler and a rear-mounted battery.

The dry sump system (RPO Z52) requires a high pressure oil filter. During an oil change, use an Ultraguardâ„¢ Gold UPF48R oil filter (part number 12626224). This filter has a higher burst strength, which is required because the oil pump produces greater volume and high system oil pressure. It is the same high pressure oil filter as used on the ZR1 and Z06 models. (Fig. 8)

Fig. 8

TIP: The internal components are the same in both the UPF48R and PF48 oil filters. The UPF48R can be used in applications where the PF48 is specified.

High Performance Brakes

The Grand Sport also features upgraded brakes (RPO J56), the same as found on the Z06. It has 14-inch (355 mm) front rotors with six-piston calipers and 13.4-inch (340 mm) rear rotors with four-piston calipers. (Fig. 9)

Fig. 9

Front replacement pads are part number 19153019 and rear placement pads are part number 19153020.

History of the Grand Sport

Legendary Corvette engineer Zora Arkus-Duntov led the development of the first Corvette Grand Sport as a lightweight and race-ready production model, based on the styling of the 1963 Corvette, to go up against the Shelby Cobra. The Grand Sport engine program featured a special, 377-cubic-inch small-block V8 with side-draft carburetors.

Although never officially sanctioned by GM, five hand-assembled Grand Sport prototypes saw extensive racing experience throughout the 1960s in the hands of "private" racers who had strong contacts within Duntov's engineering circle. Ultimately, the project was dropped due to GM's agreement to stay out of manufacturer-backed motorsports.

- Thanks to Brad Thacher

This information applies to 2002-09 vehicles with the following engines:

- 2.0L (LSJ and LNF)

- 2.2L (L61, LAP and LE8)

- 2.4L (LE5 and LAT)

A loss of oil pressure may result in noise coming from the cylinder head. This may be caused by debris clogging the oil feed restrictor in the cylinder head passage. The oil feed hole has a small ID and may clog if excessive RTV or similar gasket or sealer has dislodged and become stuck in this passage. (Fig. 10, B)

Fig. 10

This restrictor is located in the oil feed passage to the cylinder head and cannot be inspected or cleaned without cylinder head removal.

TIP: When RTV or similar sealant is used, do not use excessive amounts that can become dislodged, causing future concerns.

Use a mechanical oil pressure gauge to compare the oil pressure in the block with the oil pressure in the cylinder head. The block can be checked by removing the oil pressure sender or another engine block oil gallery plug. The oil pressure to the cylinder head can be checked by removing one of the oil gallery plugs in the cylinder head. (Fig. 10, A)

TIP: The restrictor is not available separately from the cylinder head.

See Engine Mechanical Specifications in SI for oil pressure specifications.

- Thanks to Jeff Gorenflo

There is a new Driver Information Center (DIC) message that will be displayed on all 2010 full-size trucks and SUVs to warn drivers of a low battery charge condition.

When the vehicle's battery is severely discharged, the BATTERY LOW START VEHICLE message will be displayed and four chimes will sound.

When this message is displayed, the vehicle should be started immediately. If the vehicle is not started, and the battery continues to discharge, the climate control, heated seats (if equipped), and audio system will turn off in order to decrease the amount of discharge on the battery. This may leave the vehicle's battery with enough energy to start the vehicle. If the vehicle is not started soon, it may require a jump start.

The climate control, heated seats and audio system will function normally after the vehicle is started.

- Thanks to Jermaine Stanford and Joe Kayfish

Owners of a 2006-09 DTS, Lucerne; 2007-09 Escalade, SRX, Avalanche, Silverado, Suburban, Tahoe, Acadia, Sierra, Yukon, OUTLOOK; 2008-09 Enclave, CTS; or 2009 Traverse may comment on a Park Assist Off message displayed in the DIC. When this message is displayed, the park assist module stores a failure reason in the disable history data, and the park assist system will not function.

The disable history data can be read using the Tech 2 under Body/Park Assist Module/Data Display/History Data.

The Park Assist Off message typically refers to a soft failure, which does NOT require a component replacement.

TIP: Do not confuse the Park Assist Off message with the Service Park Assist message. In most cases, there are no DTCs associated with the Park Assist Off message. However, there will be DTCs with the Service Park Assist message.

Using the Tech 2, build the vehicle and then select Body/Park Assist Module/Data Display/History Data. Record the seven Disable History readings. The reason at the top of the list (no. 1) is the most recent reason for the Park Assist Off message. For readings other than Sensor Ring Time, refer to Parking Assist System Malfunction in SI.

If the most recent reason is Sensor Ring Time, one the following may be causing the condition:

·       Ice on the sensor face caused by a recent car washing in cold weather

·       Mud, ice, or snow covering the sensor

·       Improperly installed or crooked sensor

·       Silicone isolator ring surrounding sensor missing, cut, and/or twisted

·       Sensor scratched or paint chipped

·       Excessive paint thickness on sensor after sensor replacement

·       Aftermarket bumpers

·       Trailer hitches

After determining the condition causing the Sensor Ring Time issue, the vehicle may need to be driven to remove the Park Assist Off message in the DIC. First clear the History Data and then drive the vehicle above 15 mph (24 km/h).

TIP: To clear the History Data values for testing, select Clear History Data located on the Tech 2 under Body/Park Assist Module/Special Functions/Clear History Data.

- Thanks to Jim Will

Some owners of a 2007-09 Silverado or Sierra 1500 model may comment of a thump, rattle or knock noise when turning left or when driving over bumps. This concern could be caused by the front exhaust hanger contacting the frame hanger. (Fig. 11)

Fig. 11

If contact is identified, grind the end of the exhaust hanger to 4 mm +/-2mm to provided additional clearance. (Fig. 12)

Fig. 12

- Thanks to Jim Will

The Service Information for all model years and applications has been updated recently regarding the automatic transmission range select lever nut.

When performing repairs on all automatic transmissions, it is important to hold the transmission range select lever while removing or installing the lever retaining nut. (Fig. 13)

Fig. 13

Failure to hold the lever may cause damage to the transmission's internal park system components, which could allow the vehicle to roll when placed in the Park position.

- Thanks to Dallas Walton

If a fluid leak is found underneath a 2007-2009 Silverado or Sierra - equipped with transfer case RPO codes NQF or NQG and a 6L90 automatic transmission, RPO code MYD, the transfer case fluid may be leaking out of the adapter area between the transfer case and the transmission.

The transfer case input seal in these models is a double lip design and these transmission/transfer case combinations use a dry cavity adapter area. Because this is a dry cavity area, the seal can overheat, which may cause a fluid leak that may be misdiagnosed as an adapter gasket leak.

After verifying the condition, replace the double lip seal with a single lip seal (part number 19133156). The single lip seal will run cooler and be less prone to leakage.

IMPORTANT: The double lip seal will continue to be used with 4-speed automatic transmissions and wet transfer case adapter cavities. Failure to use a double lip seal in vehicles with 4-speed transmissions will result in a leak.

- Thanks to Chuck Krepp

If the driver of a 2007-10 Acadia, 2007-09 OUTLOOK, 2008-10 Enclave, or 2009-10 Traverse mentions that the power liftgate does not work, check the position of the power liftgate disable switch.

Before a repair order is written or any repairs are made, make sure that the power liftgate disable switch, located on the center of the instrument panel below the climate controls, is not switched to the Off position. (Fig. 14)

Fig. 14

In the Off position, the power function will not operate and the liftgate can only be opened or closed manually.

In addition, the RKE transmitter will not operate the power liftgate with the disable switch in the Off position. If the RKE liftgate button is pressed with the switch off, the lights will flash one time, but the power liftgate will not move.

TIP: When using the RKE transmitter to operate the power liftgate (with the disable switch not in the Off position), press and hold the liftgate button for one second to operate the liftgate.

If the power liftgate disable switch is in the Off position, press the top of the switch to turn on the power function and check for proper operation of the liftgate.

Be sure to explain to the customer the location and operation of the power liftgate disable switch.

- Thanks to Paige Hitch

The new Environmental Performance Label on the window of many new GM vehicles may be causing some confusion. (Fig. 15)

Fig. 15

It was developed by the California Air Resources Board (CARB); however, it is installed on 50-state certified vehicles, not just those vehicles meeting California emissions requirements.

Here are some common questions about the label.

What is the Environmental Performance Label?

The Environmental Performance Label is a 4x6 inch window label that contains a global warming score and a smog score and is required to be installed on vehicles certified to California emission requirements.

Which vehicles have the label installed?

The label is installed on vehicles certified to California emission requirements. This includes "50-State Emission" vehicles which, for many models, are distributed in all fifty states. The label will not be installed on vehicles that are not certified to California emission requirements, i.e., Federal Emission vehicles.

In terms of vehicle classes, the label will be installed on all vehicles weighing up to 8,500 lbs. GVWR, and on certain vehicles weighing between 8,501 and 10,000 lbs. GVWR that meet the definition of medium-duty passenger vehicle.

What is the global warming score?

The global warming score is an indication of the vehicle's greenhouse gas emissions and is determined by CARB. It is determined relative to a 1-10 scale with a higher score meaning lower greenhouse gas emissions. Larger vehicles that burn more gasoline have lower fuel economy (mpg), higher greenhouse gas emissions and lower global warming scores. Smaller vehicles that burn less gasoline have higher fuel economy (mpg), lower greenhouse gas emissions and higher global warming scores.

What is the smog score?

The smog score is an indication of the vehicle's smog-forming emissions, specifically non-methane organic gases (NMOG) and oxides of nitrogen (NOx), and is determined by CARB.  It is determined relative to a 1-10 scale with a higher score meaning lower smog-forming emissions.

When did installation of the label begin?

GM began installing the label on vehicles produced December 2, 2008.

When can the label be removed from the window?

The label can be removed from the window after the purchaser has taken possession of the vehicle.

- Thanks to Steve Love

The radio display on the 2010 Camaro may fog when using the vehicle's air conditioning. This will typically occur when:

·       The fan speed is in the High position

·       The center vents are pointed downward toward the radio display

Currently, there is no repair available. Once the vehicle interior has cooled sufficiently, lower the fan speed and avoid pointing the center vents downward toward the radio.

- Thanks to Dennis Kosmowski

If poor AC performance is noticed on the 2010 Camaro when the following conditions are met: the vehicle is running, the AC compressor clutch is engaged, and high- and low-side AC pressures are close to the same pressure, it may be due to a broken AC compressor clutch/pulley shaft.

Inspect the AC compressor for a broken AC compressor clutch/pulley shaft. If found to be broken, replace the compressor.

TIP: Be sure to reprogram the Remote Heater and Air Conditioning Control Module with the latest calibration in TIS2Web that states, "New calibration to prevent evaporator freeze."

- Thanks to Dino Poulos

On 2010 Camaro V8 models, the engine may hesitate during acceleration and one or more of the following indicators may illuminate: Service Engine Soon, Low Traction and/or Service Stability. Also, the following DTCs may be present: P0068, P0102, P0106, P0107, P0208, P0300, U0237, and/or U2100.

These conditions may be caused by a chafed engine wiring harness at the right front exhaust manifold shield. The DTCs set may depend on which wires are making contact.

Inspect the engine wiring harness (Fig. 16, A) for chafing on the right front exhaust manifold shield (Fig. 16, B).

Fig. 16

If the harness is making contact, inspect the harness and repair any damaged wires as necessary. Route the harness to prevent future contact.

- Thanks to Dino Poulos

One or more of the following three conditions may exist on the 2010 Camaro:

1.     It may be necessary to press down on the trunk lid to get it to open.

2.     If the trunk lid is jammed, the only way to get it open is to pull the Emergency Trunk Release (ETR handle is inside the trunk).

3.     The trunk will not close even if it is slammed.

These conditions may be caused by the latch binding with the striker, causing the trunk lid to not open, or the ETR handle may not be fully seated in the trunk trim and is pulling on the latch cable, causing the trunk lid to not close.

If the trunk lid will not open, lube the rear compartment lock mechanism and replace the trunk latch striker. The part is available only through the WPC. See PI PIC5209A for further information.

If the trunk lid will not close, with the trunk lid fully open, push up (toward the sky) on the ETR handle to be sure the ETR handle is not being held in the released or open position. Secure the handle with Velcro^® tape to the rear compartment trunk lid trim.

- Thanks to Dino Poulos

An exhaust leak or noise on full-size trucks may be caused by an unseated pipe-to-pipe mid-joint connection. (Fig. 17)

Fig. 17

10209.09D -- Emerging Issues

September 10, 2009

9:30 AM and 12:30 PM Eastern Time

- Thanks to John Miller